34. Ways to get your child reading when they really don’t want to! | With Ellen Westbrook from Engaging Reluctant Readers

 you want any village podcast, episode number 34.

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Your Learning Village podcast, or if you’re listening for the first time. I like to welcome you and today we’re going to be talking about. Engaging with it to readers because quite often a question that I get asked. Is that. I know my child should be reading, but they really don’t want to. So what can I be doing to help them?

So today’s guest talked to me about, this is Ellen Westbrook and Ellen is wife and mom to, to high energy boys and let you guide with a bachelor’s in elementary education at a recovering reluctant reader herself. When she became a mom, something had clicked. She realized that she didn’t want her boys to follow her reading journey footsteps. I made it her point to create everything family culture.

She’s watched her boys become a little bit worms. And has became passionate about helping parents of elected readers, identify their families, reading roadblocks. And give them the tools and resources to combat those roadblocks and rediscover family reading fun together. We had a great conversation about all the different things that can be doing at home to help your reluctant reader, but from looking at how you can set things up.

In your house, right through to some of the incentives that you might want to be using. And how you can foster that for the long term. So here’s my conversation with Ellen

 Hello Ellen and welcome to the Your Learning Village podcast. We’re happy to have you here today. Thank you, Sarah. I’m so excited to be here.

So tell us a little bit about yourself and what learning to read has been like for your family.

Sure. So first of all, I’m Ellen Westbrook. I’m CEO o and founder of Engaging Reluctant Readers, and I have been married to my husband for almost 10 years, and together we have two boys.

We have a seven and a half year old and the youngest is going to be turning four next Monday. I’m in denial. But they’re both like high energy kiddos and they’re not the ones that I need to worry about though when it comes to reading. I personally come from a background of being a reluctant reader myself for over 20 plus years.

And so for me it was the flip switch when I had my boys. Cause I didn’t want them. Going down my reading journey and thankfully some of the shifts that I’ve made, which we can talk about have really just kept them as avid little readers and the closest they’ve come on the reading journey to seeing any reluctance out of my two would be my oldest.

He went through some speech therapy when he was in preschool, which delayed some of his phonics and phonemic awareness skills. But now he’s storing high above the clouds. He’s reading at or above a third grade level, both for his ability to read and the comprehension, and he’s only in first grade, so we cannot be any prouder of the reading journey we have been on.

Oh wow. That sounds like they really have fostered that learning to read and wanting to read journey. Because it’s interesting you mentioned like, I think a lot of people think of being a readers that very much someone’s stuck in books, but I think sometimes just because you don’t like reading books doesn’t mean that you don’t like reading, because I I’m not one who likes to sit down and always read a novel, but I do like reading more information.

But we do often think of readers being the one, like we say, like a bookworm inside normally a fiction book, isn’t it? Like, tends to be what we think about.

What can families do to create a friendly environment?

Sure. So one of the first shifts that I made in our home was obviously making sure we had a good number of books to choose from. And being able to cater to a variety of interests, especially the younger your reader is. They may not have found that reading niche, and if they are a more reluctant reader, then chances are you’re gonna have to really discover what that foot in the door book is gonna be for them.

I like to refer to them as the just right books for them. And so, first of all, you need to have access. And in addition to that, you need to make sure that it’s not overwhelming to your child. So one of the big things that I love to share with parents is to make sure that books are not only visible, but easily accessible.

And by doing that, you’re spreading them all over the house. I like to use the five Bs to do this cause this is the breakfast table. The bathroom baskets and bins and bookshelves all over the house. Basically any spot you can think of the bedroom and also the backseat of your car and or your go bag.

And by doing this, it takes the pressure off your child of seeing one centralized area that has say, a hundred plus books in it and breaking it down into 10, maybe 15, 20 books in a given area. And then beyond that, when you’re looking at the spaces that you’re setting up to also make it more , visibly friendly.

And I’m gonna take a moment and break into my entrepreneurial brain for a moment because as entrepreneurs we’re always told that it takes buyers at least seven times times of seeing something to even think about taking action to purchase.

And I like to think of it the same way in terms of advertising, reading to our kids, the more times they have to engage with books throughout the day, and the more visibly attractive we can make it for them so that it’s eye catching. The easier it’s gonna be for them to opt for a book over the, let’s face it ever present tech and screen devices that we’re faced with.

So you wanna take advantage of having covers out as much as possible. Most children, book authors and illustrators have done the hard work for you by making those covers super engaging and eye catching, and usually with bright, vibrant colors to draw the reader in.

And so by doing that, you’re basically saying, look at me, look at me, look at me. Open me and read me. Which, if they’re seeing it throughout the day in all the areas that they’re going through in their home, it’s gonna be a lot harder for them to say no to.

And then I also wanna mention that one of the benefits of having covers out into the spines most young children don’t know how to read yet. Or if they are, they’re not gonna wanna turn their head to the side and read the title of the book from the spine itself. So by having those covers out they’re able to just be drawn in by that cover again, as I mentioned.

And by doing that, they’re also not being stacked, one on top of one another. Which as they’re going through their day, if they’re already reluctant to read, they’re not gonna glance at more than the top book, maybe one or two if they’re set in a horizontal stack on the floor. And so by having them up, they’re getting a broader idea of the books available to them for easier browsing and book discovery as I like to put it.

My other tip is making sure that they have a really fun and engaging place to sit and read.

So you wanna think about having a book nook, and this can look like a lot of things, but the key components that I always like to remind parents of is making sure it’s got good lighting, whether that’s a book lamp, overhead lighting, or natural light.

As long as it’s good lighting, we’re gonna prevent eye strain, which is honestly the slippery slope that I went down originally to become a reluctant reader myself, I started getting eye strain from not wearing my glasses, developed headaches. Headaches, equal reading time was no fun. As much as you can make the space well lit, that’s always gonna be a plus.

You wanna have a comfortable chair or pillows, blankets, cuddlers, whatever’s gonna make that space really inviting and fun for your kid. And then obviously have books really, really close by, like within an arms reach for those not on camera with us right now, but I almost always am sitting somewhere nearby, a stack of books.

I have a table to my right. We have literally next to like almost every seating area in our home, couches, there’s a basket. Upstairs in the bedroom we have the nice hanging bookshelves or I should have called them canvas fling bookshelves, where they sit in nicely right next to their bed. So super easily accessible.

And then If you can eliminate distractions in these areas as much as possible. So this is why I like to say when you can put baskets and bins and bookshelves anywhere in your home. I like to look for the odd places, like a random corner in an upstairs hallway, like we have an extra large space at the top of our landing where it’s not good for anything else.

This is the perfect place to set up a booknook because there’s no technology, there’s no tv, no screens, none of that. It’s a quiet space. It’s well lit. All of the things are just coming combined together. So I like to find those unique areas to supply books and just let your kid explore, enjoy, and have fun.

And if they wanna join you in the process of setting up that space. The more, the better. So. Oh wow. Those would definitely be my top tips for sure.

I’ve never heard the five B’s before, particularly the breakfast table one. I’ve never thought of doing that.

A lot of the other, like obviously the bedroom and we tend to have ones in the bathroom anyway, just to make them do you what they’re supposed to be doing in there but yeah, I never thought the breakfast table.

And there are definitely considerations that have to come into play as far as like what types of books you’re gonna put in those spaces, like the breakfast table, if you’re one of those families that you’re running out the door every morning.

That may not be the best place to have, like a lengthy novel that you’re reading together as a family. Quick books poems any kinda short stories, anything that’s gonna be quick. But when I say breakfast table, it doesn’t just have to be centered around breakfast time. This can just be used at, at lunch then even, , reading a book before dinner and having your dinner conversation be about whatever you’re reading together.

Breakfast just worked with the B’s oh yeah. I can tell.

And do you think it’s changed as your children have got older?

Because I know particularly for us, like we said about the open bookshelves, we started off without an open bookshelf. And we did find that whenever she was going to find it, when she was a toddler, she would pull out just a book on the top. So we kept reading the same book on the top and we’re like, we’ve gotta do something about this. Either they’re all gonna be all spread across the floor or we need to make sure she can see them. And as soon as we change it so that she could see all the books, then we were reading lots of different ones.

So we weren’t on the, we weren’t reading the same ones and getting frustrated because it’s like, well we’ve read this five times today. Can we read a different book?

So do you think it changes as they get older?

I would say yes and no. I would say well, first of all, With the reading, the same book over and over, you could totally set your house up with, , the books more visible, the covers out and like a hanging book shelf scenario and still end up reading the same book over and over.

Cause our kids can totally be creatures of habit and if they’ve fallen in love with that one book. Embrace it. I know it can be nerve-wracking as a parent, but maybe just had a goal that like, by like the fifth time you start recommending another one. But it’s actually good to get that repetition in there for them.

And the more familiar they get, those are gonna be some of the first books that they start doing their pre-reading skills on as they actually graduate onto being independent readers. So always a plus. But as far as my boys. If anything, we’ve increased the number of books over time. I would definitely say when they were like baby toddler age, we had less to reduce that overwhelm.

And now that they’re as I said, avid little bookworms. We’ve been able to expand because they wanna read multiple books in a night and we need , a better stock to choose from. And then beyond that, it could be as simple as, , as your child gets older, they might not wanna sit in a corner and like a sleeping bag with, , stuffed animals in a blanket that may not be what’s inviting to them anymore.

So it could just be. Embracing the fact that they wanna read upside down mm-hmm. Off the edge of the couch. They want to enjoy eBooks and audiobooks or, , even graphic novels is a common touchpoint for parents. So, I mean, in terms of the style of books and things like that, that usually evolves over time with your reader.

But for me, reading is reading. And it has to really work for your family and your child. And when I say your family, that can also include Your family’s budget and we can talk about that in a bit. But beyond that, I wouldn’t say that you need to really do any major tweaks as they get older. It’s, it’s really just following their lead.

Okay. So it’s having it all set up, but then it’s just changing the books ever so slightly as they get older and just having more of them so there’s more that they can get to. Yeah. And we could get into it, the book rotation is a really useful tool mm-hmm.

In terms of being able to. Not have a whole lot out, but as your library grows and expands that can be a really great way to minimize that overwhelm. But I mean, it, again, it really just depends on, on your reader, because I could try and introduce a thousand new books to my oldest one, but he is a creature of habit, and we have several books that he loves that are on repeat.

But what I love about that is his confidence is growing with them as he reads them over and over again. So, In terms of that for him, it’s been a great tool and resource to just keep it simple. Fair enough.

And we, did just mentioned about budget there, but do families do you think they need a lot of space or a big budget to create a reader friendly environment?

Personally, I think, no. I think that it is important to get variety for your child, but you don’t need to do that by spending an arm and a leg to, to get there. The library is a great resource. There are tons of apps out there. We personally love the app Epic. They have a free version and they also have the unlimited, which I think it’s like 7 99 a month or something like that which gives you full access to their catalog. So you’re paying one small monthly fee and getting access to thousands of books. Which to me is a valuable resource, especially when you’re still trying to figure out where your child’s, like reading niche is, like where their interests really are.

It lets you test that out without having to go to Barnes and Noble or any of the big bookstores. And then, Hope and pray that they’re actually gonna like the book, but they tend to have more of the non-fiction books on there too, which you don’t always find in paper to you. My mother-in-law in particular, she likes to get books from like a charity shop, thrift shops.

So every time we see her, she’s got another stack of books for us, but they’ve been pre used, but it doesn’t really matter. Our library’s quite big, mostly because she’s always looking for books for us, and they were getting them second room, third hand.

But it does the same thing, like for we means that we’ve got far more to access without having to spend lots of money on them.

Yeah, secondhand is another great way to do it. I don’t know if they have them where you are. But we have little free libraries here. So like in my neighborhood alone, there’s like five within like easy walking distance that people have just set up and, , you swap books in, you swap book out and what I love is, as your kids start to grow out of books, you can swap some in and take some new ones home.

But the other thing you can do, if you have a bunch of friends, families in the neighborhood that maybe have older kids, kids younger than you, varying ages you can always do book flops with them, which is another great way to, take use of what you already have without spending more money and other people get to go on and enjoy the stories your kids have enjoyed previously.

I like that idea. Swapping with other families.

So should families be using incentives for reading? Is that something that you think is a good idea?

So this is always a fun topic for me to talk about because I personally say yes, 100%. Absolutely. Because as a recovering, reluctant reader myself, I’ve had to incentivize myself to get this habit going. Especially after 20 plus years of basically running to the hills anytime someone said, Hey, go read this.

It’s a great tool for parents to use, especially when their child is reluctant to read, whether that’s they’re lacking the motivation or their skills need some work and they’re seeing it as that. I mean, reading’s already a hard skill, but for struggling readers, it’s that like 10 times more daunting because it’s extra work compared to those that reading comes easily too.

So for me, incentives are a great way to get your foot in the door to get that skill practice in there because the more they’re reading, the more they’re using their brain, which of course is a muscle and you wanna use it or lose it. And from there, is that the only way to get your kid reading?

No, because that’s not a sustainable option. But there are things you can do that don’t require any money and you can incentivize reading with more reading. Which I can talk about in more detail in a second, but it’s really just understanding how to use incentives correctly but definitely not a taboo thing to do.

So when I talk about using them correctly. So this is things like making sure whatever incentives you’re using is short term, making sure that this is not the only way they’re gonna get access to this incentive. So it’s not like if you read, you get screen time, and that’s the only way they earn screen time because they’re gonna start to see it as.

Something to be resentful of, and that’s not gonna foster positive reading experiences. But if it’s something where you can offer a variety of rewards and incentives, and you can do it on the backend after you’ve already caught them reading that’s a great way to implement incentives for sure.

Yes and it can obviously depends on the individual child and the family situation, but I like that way you also said about catching them reading and then having incentives.

So how can incentives be used to get a child hooked on reading for a long term?

Okay, so I like to use incentives just to get them opening that book, cuz that’s step number one. We can’t get kids to fall in love with reading if they’re not even opening the books in the first place. So for me, the incentives are that foot in the door. And from there you gotta work on fostering a love of reading.

And I like to talk about nine different ways that you can do this and it’s gonna vary a bit depending on your child’s temperament. So it really is one of those things that you have to customize to your unique reader as far as what’s going to work well.

But the general ideas are you need to get a routine in place. It needs to develop into a habit whether that’s reading at a certain time of day, a certain amount of time per day, whatever works for your family. And this can be broken up into chunks throughout the day. It doesn’t all have to happen in one sitting. For us, we usually have like an audio book in the car in the morning, which counts some of our reading time.

And then there’s usually some reading that goes on for homework after school. And then our staple that guarantees us at least some reading for the day is always part of our bedtime routine. So that’s step number one for fostering lower reading.

Step number two is, as I mentioned before, using the five Vs to create that invitation. To make reading more visible and accessible to your child. So that again, you’re advertising that reading experience to them so that they’re gravitating more towards that versus screens and technology and whatever other distractions there are for them.

And then the big one step three let them choose. They have to be their own guide in this reading journey because you could tell me, go read a phone book and I’ll do it, but I’m gonna hate you for it. I’m not gonna fall in love with reading a phone book. I personally am a fan of like historical fiction, a little sci-fi fantasy. If you give me nonfiction, I’ll read it, but it’s not my jam and it’s gonna have a completely different vibe depending on your child.

Your child’s best. But they know themselves even better than you do. So letting them be part of the process in discovering what books are gonna unlock that reading magic for them is so key.

Now, my fourth one, this is part of the reading process itself, and that’s to make it more fun and engaging experience for them because the more positive experiences they have with books and reading, like I said, I could read a phone book, but it’s not gonna be fun.

Are there people out there that could really make it fun and come alive? Sure. Am I one of them? No, not the phone, sorry. But as parents, we can do a couple things. We can, , help them draw connections to the characters. We can, , do the voices. And even if you are horrible at voices, I encourage you to try it.

If at nothing else. Your child is going to think that you have made a massive fool of yourself. And that’s funny for them. They’re going to love that experience, just hands down on that experience alone. And then, , even just being able to draw in connections. Like if you’re reading the book and then you watch the movie version, that’s a great way to bring stories to life.

If you’re reading a familiar favorite and you decide, well let’s put the book down and act out our favorite scene. All of these different ways that you. Work with bringing the story to life giving it more context, more ways to draw upon their imagination. And again, it’s gonna depend on your kid.

If you have like an introverted, not so artsy kid, is acting out a scene gonna work well for them, probably not. But if they’re the type that likes to actually create craft artsy. And they might like doing a little art project where they get to make, like a mask of like their favorite character.

And then when they’re reading the different characters, they can flip up the different mask and do things like that. So I love just to get really, really creative and not be afraid to think that anyone’s judging you for how that’s gonna go. If it’s fun for them, that’s what’s most important.

And then my other two big things are modeling reading. And by this I don’t just mean having them watch you go through the reading process, but actually reading for yourself. This is a big one in my opinion. I honestly, this is where like the reason I as a reluctant reader had to flip my switch and become a recovering, reluctant reader was because I knew that if my kids didn’t see me reading, They were gonna be like, well, why do I have to what point is there beyond needing it for school if mom’s an adult and not doing it for herself?

So being able to demonstrate that family reading culture to them is monumental. And the part that goes along with that is then also making it that family aspect where you enjoy family read alouds together and it takes the pressure off of them seeing reading as a chore, just a piece of homework.

We use reading in our everyday lives, whether we want to or not, and we cannot get by into society without reading something. I mean, as adults, we end up scrolling social probably far too much more than we need to, but there’s reading even involved in that, and most careers out there included as well.

So being able to show them that there’s value in it, that there’s the ability to gain knowledge and grow from what we’re reading. Those are all really, really important pieces that come along with both modeling it for them yourselves and also having that family dynamic of just making it something to bond together over and then.

I already mentioned making connections, but some other pieces that go along with fostering a love of reading. If you have a struggling reader, a differently wired reader working on things that are going to build their reading confidence and growing their skills is gonna be a big piece of making reading more fun for them because the more we can do to take that load off of them from feeling like it’s that chore and , all this extra amount of work, the better.

So the more we can work on a skill building and growing that confidence in their own reading abilities, they’re gonna start to see it as that rewarding experience that it can be, that we can, , fall in love with the character, the plots, the storylines, and , going on these wild adventures with these characters.

That’s the real magic that you need to tap into. But you’ve gotta go through all these other pieces to be able to get there. So it’s really just figuring out how to. Use those incentives to get over that hurdle of cracking open the book, and then just making the whole experience just come together for them so that they can really start to have that sense of intrinsic motivation, that internal piece for them that lights them up when they get to the end of a really good story.

Or they’re like, I knew it was, I knew that person was the bad guy. And that sense of like self satisfaction of being able to discover that mystery before it’s actually unveiled.

And how much time would you say you are doing the reading and then your child’s doing the reading? Cause I think quite often we think about reading we think, okay, my child needs to be doing all the reading. But a big part of, particularly when they’re at the pre-reading stage, obviously a parent or the adult leading it rather than the child. So when do you, particularly now your children are getting a bit older and reading more themselves. What balance do you have with that now?

So that’s a really, really interesting one. I’m glad you brought that question up because for me, I would say 90% of our time is spent with myself or my husband doing the reading. And that’s, that’s partially a personal preference and partially just, , following my son’s lead.

My youngest isn’t reading himself yet. He’s starting with the pre-reading skills of trying to copy after me or flipping through books that he’s familiar with and, trying to tell the story out loud himself. But he is not actually reading the words on the page yet.

The older one, as I mentioned, is in first grade. We already know his reading is above grade level, so in his scenario, I don’t press over needing to hear him read at home because I know he’s getting that skill practice in school. So I let him be the guide on that one. There are occasions where he really, really enjoys to read to his younger brother or we’ll catch him just reading out loud to himself, or he’ll come to us. Mommy, I want you to hear this really cool story that I got from the library today.

If he’s on board and wants to read, I let him. If he’s not feeling it, I 100% take the wheel because they can still get so much value from hearing us read out loud to them. They get to just sit back, relax, and fall in love with the stories, which for me is the biggest piece.

When you’re dealing with a struggling reader or reluctant reader, they’re, if they’re already struggling to make that connection, adding that other layer of saying you need to do the reading it’s gonna have that negative impact that we don’t want. We always want the reading experience to be a positive one for our kids as much as possible. And the beauty is at home we can expose them to whatever books they wanna read. We can let them read or listen.

And we don’t have that sort of flexibility as far as when teachers are working with them in the school systems. They’re dictated by curriculum. They have to read out loud in school because they have to for testing purposes and being able to gauge where they’re at. So for me it’s really just, if they wanna read, let ’em read.

And there is that fine line of if they really need that additional skill practice at home.

But when it comes to things like that, if there’s anything that like, when he was first learning to read, we had some of like his phonic skills that needed some work. Some of his blending sounds weren’t going so well. We had like a dedicated time, but it was like short bite sized chunks, like dedicated to him reading and practicing those skills out loud for like five, 10 minutes.

And then any other reading that happened during the day, it was 100% me. Because like I said, I just wanted him to continue having that love of reading, which we’ve petered around over the years with him being like, I don’t know if I really wanna read today. I really want my tablet. But anything we can do to keep that pressure off and just let them enjoy the stories, is a hundred percent key in my book. And they’re still learning from hearing us read.

And it’s important to say, because know there is sometimes, particularly if your child’s school, there is pressure that you should be trying to keep them up to standard and making sure that they’re getting that extra practice.

I do like how you said, how there is lots of other things going on that can be helping them reading and it isn’t just actually hearing them read word to word, which makes a difference for that. And it’s funny cause so my dad and stepmom, they keep crediting me with his reading abilities and I’m like, it is but it isn’t me cuz we haven’t sat down and done all that skill work.

He’s had amazing teachers thus far that have really worked well. They, they use a program called Haggerty, which, , topping all their decoding skills and their blending skills and he really loved that there was like a tech piece to it and the kinesthetic motion of being able to, have the hand movements to go along with breaking down the words and blending them back together.

That worked really well for him. My background growing up, I didn’t get a lot of like direct phonics instructions. So for me that was not an easy place and I was not entirely comfortable with going there. So I’m glad that he got that experience with his teachers and it went so well. But for those parents out there that feel like they need to do that skill work at home.

And you don’t feel comfortable. One, there are YouTube videos out there that can teach you how to break downwards and blend back together. But if all else fails hire tutor. A specialized reading tutor is going to be your best friend. Let them do all the skill work and then you can keep that fun reading time. Just as a bonding opportunity between you and them.

And you have a Ravenous Reading Club? Yes. So I have my Developing Ravens Readers Club. This is a monthly membership where you get access first all to my reading program on that framework, which literally guides you through basically the process that I was talking about of fostering a load of reading.

It walks you through the prepare phase where you’re getting that reader friendly environment set up, the read phase, where you’re really looking at, learning how to lean into their interests. While still figuring out how to offer some variety to expand their reading horizons. And then also touching upon how you bring that reading experience alive.

I mentioned the voices and things like that. And then the final piece, my optimized phase is all about learning how to use incentives, how you can fit in time so you can model reading for them yourself. And then also learning how you can really take the power of the family read aloud to foster that love of reading long term.

And then beyond that within the club, we also have weekly planning calls where you’re basically looking at the week ahead to make sure that reading isn’t just left on your to-do list. And then we also have two hot seat calls each month where members get to come pick my brain. We get to like really get strategic and nitty gritty and focus in on a strategy that’s gonna work for your unique reader because as I mentioned, every reader’s journey is different.

What’s gonna work for some might not work for others. Like, I love my common example of if you have a competitive child versus a perfectionist child. Incentives that you’re choosing there might work really well for the competitive child. It might be really, discouraging for a perfectionist child.

So there’s a lot of pieces at play. And then the final pieces they get a monthly training either for me or a guest coming in to speak on a variety of topics.

Fantastic. And where can everyone find you online? You can find me over on Instagram at engaging reluctant readers and also over on Facebook at engaging reluctant readers.

And thank you for joining us today and telling us all about how you can engage in your reluctant readers. Anything else you wanna add? Just before we close? I did wanna mention, since we were talking about incentives and how to use them properly, I do have a engaging reluctant reader’s guide. It walks you through, as I mentioned, the entire process of fostering love of reading, as well as how to choose the right incentives for your kids. And inside that guide I have broken down into categories. If you have a competitive child, a social child, a perfectionist child, an artsy child, a techie child, or a struggling reader or differently wired child Forget what the count was at, cause I added some, ideas recently, but it’s, it’s well over 80 to a hundred ideas of different incentives that you can use for your unique child.

And again, it’s, it’s not one of those things where you have to, oh, I have a competitive child, I can only go from this list. You can absolutely pick and choose based on, the temperament child. But it just gives you a jumping off point if you’re really like, where do I even begin with incentivizing reading to get my kid to open , this book without the tears?

That’s fantastic, and we’ll put the link to that in the show notes as well. Well, thank you for joining us today and it’s been great chatting to you about all the different things we can be doing to help engaging reluctant readers. Thank you again for having me.